>> Bonnie: THIS WEEK ON "TO THE CONTRARY", FIRST, A CHANGING VIEW OF WOMEN AND PERSONS OF COLOR ON GUN OWNERSHIP, THEN VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS TAKES ON IMMIGRATION.

[MUSIC] >> Bonnie: HELLO.

I AM BONNIE ERBE.

WELCOME TO "TO THE CONTRARY", A WEEKLY DISCUSSION OF NEWS AND SOCIAL TRENDS.

AFTER TWO MASS SHOOTINGS, CONGRESS IS ONCE AGAIN CONSIDERING NEW GUN LEGISLATION.

WHILE GUN SHOP OWNERS ARE READY FOR A SPIKE IN SALES.

OF FIREARMS TRADE ASSOCIATION, THE NATIONAL SHOOTING SPORTS FOUNDATION, REPORTS FIREARMS TO SALES TO WOMEN ARE UP 40 PERCENT FROM 2019.

AFRICAN-AMERICANS AS WELL AS ASIAN AMERICANS HAVE ALSO BEEN BUYING GUNS AT UNPRECEDENTED RATES.

SURVEYS SAY THE REASONS RANGE FROM PERSONAL SAFETY TO THE FEAR OF CIVIL UNREST.

WITH US TODAY, HILARY ROSEN, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST; RINA SHAW, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIES; AVIS JONES- DEWEEVER, CO FOUNDER MAXBLACK MEDIA; TIANA LOWE, COLUMNIST FOR THE WASHINGTON EXAMINER.

LET ME START WITH YOU, AVIS JONES-DEWEEVER , IS VERY PROMINENT AFRICAN-AMERICAN WOMAN.

YOU SEE VIEWS ON GUN RIGHTS AND GUN OWNERSHIP CHANGING AMONG WOMEN YOU KNOW?

>> Avis Jones-DeWeever: TO SOME DEGREE AMONG WOMEN, SPECIFICALLY, THOUGH, I WOULD SAY GENERALLY SPEAKING, THOUGH, WITHIN THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

THERE WAS A STRONG SEGMENT THAT HAVE ALWAYS UNDERSTOOD THE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DEFEND OURSELVES AND THAT WOULD INCLUDE THROUGH GUN OWNERSHIP.

>> Bonnie: DID THEY PAY ATTENTION TO THE DATA THAT SHOW IF YOU HAVE A GUN IN YOUR HOME YOU ARE MUCH MORE LIKELY TO USE IT FOR SUICIDE THAT YOU ARE TO FEND OFF AN INTRUDER?

>> Avis Jones-DeWeever: PERHAPS.

BUT WHEN YOU COME FROM HISTORY OF, QUITE FRANKLY, EXPERIENCING DOMESTIC TERRORISM IN THIS COUNTRY, WE SEE -- AT LEAST I KNOW I DO AND A LOT OF PEOPLE THAT I'VE GROWN UP AROUND -- HAVE SEEN IT AS A VERY ESSENTIAL ELEMENT FOR SELF DEFENSE.

>> Bonnie: AND DOESN'T SCARE THEM THAT THEY GET A FIREARM, AND FOR EVERY ONE THAT THEY GET, 100 MORE GO OUT ON THE STREET TO PEOPLE WHO ARE GOING TO USE IT TO BURGLARIZE THEM?

>> Avis Jones-DeWeever: YOU KNOW, I THINK WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT HERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN OWNING A GUN AT HOME, IF THEY HAVE CHILDREN THEN THEY CAN FIGURE OUT WAYS TO HAVE IT IN A WAY IN WHICH IT IS LOCKED AWAY AND IS SAFE AS A PROTECTIVE MECHANISM.

TO ME, THAT'S A VERY DIFFERENT DISCUSSION THAN WHAT WE GENERALLY SEE IN TERMS OF A LOT OF THE TERRORISTIC ACTIVITIES THAT ARE GOING ON WITH HIGH CAPACITY, BASICALLY WAR MACHINES THAT ARE BEING USED TO COMMIT MASS MURDER.

>> Bonnie: SO YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AUTOMATIC WEAPONS WHICH ARE -- >> Avis Jones-DeWeever: EXACTLY.

>> Bonnie: WHICH WERE BANNED AT ONE POINT, AND IT EXPIRED AFTER THE CLINTON ADMINISTRATION.

NO CONGRESS, NO PRESIDENT HAS BEEN ABLE TO GET IT BACK AS A LAW SINCE THEN.

HILLARY, YOU ARE A DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST.

HOW DOES THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION TRICKY TRACK THIS ISSUE?

BECAUSE ON ONE HAND, HE WANTS TO REMAIN VERY CENTRIST.

THAT'S HOW HE WON THE ELECTION.

ON THE OTHER HAND, THE LEFT ARE PUSHING HIM -- PARTS OF THE LEFT OR MOST OF THE LEFT ARE PUSHING, PUSHING, PUSHING FOR GUN CONTROL BECAUSE IT'S BEEN GONE FOR YEARS, AT LEAST INSOFAR AS AUTOMATIC WEAPONS IS CONCERNED, AND YET NOW THIS NEW PART OF THE LIGHT, AND YOU TELL ME HOW BIG IT IS TO SAYING NO, WE WANT OUR OWN GUNS.

>> Hilary Rosen: LOOK, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD TAKE WHAT AVIS IS SAYING IS BEING THAT ALL OF A SUDDEN PEOPLE OF COLOR AND WOMEN ARE AGAINST UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECKS.

THAT'S NOT TRUE.

I MEAN, I THINK WHY SHOULD ANY SEGMENT OF OUR POPULATION WHO WANTS TO FEEL LIKE LITTLE, YOU KNOW, EMPOWERMENT OR SOMETHING WITH OWNING A GUN, THAT HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PUBLIC POLICY ISSUES FACING THE CONGRESS AND FACING PRESIDENT BIDEN.

AND, YOU KNOW, WE ARE PAST THE UNIVERSAL BACKGROUND CHECK'S BILL THAT PASSED THE HOUSE LAST WEEK, THE SENATE AUTO PASS IT BY MOST WILL SIGN IT.

IN THAT SAYS, LIKE, IF YOU HAVE A HISTORY, FROM THE HISTORY, IF YOU HAVE A MENTAL HEALTH HISTORY, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO BUY A GUN, AND IT IS APPROPRIATE.

THAT IS WHAT WE WANT.

AND SO, I THINK THIS CONFLATING, YOU KNOW, THE NRA LINE THAT, WELL, WE WILL BE TAKING GUNS AWAY FROM WOMEN AND NOW PEOPLE OF COLOR IF ALL OF A SUDDEN WE DO SIMPLE GUN CONTROL, THAT IS JUST, YOU KNOW, A RED HERRING.

>> Bonnie: RIGHT.

BUT THAT WAS MY -- BUT, BUT, BUT THAT WAS GOING TO BE MY NEXT QUESTION, WHICH IS YOU KNOW REPUBLICANS AND THE NRA -- I DON'T KNOW HOW POWERFUL THE NRA IS ANYMORE.

IT'S PRETTY MUCH IMPLODED LAST YEAR.

BUT THE NRA AND ALL OF THE PRO-GUN OWNERSHIP PACKS ARE GOING TO RUN ADS SAYING, SHOWING BIDEN CALLING FOR REGISTRATION, AND THEN IT IS GOING TO BE FOLLOWED BY THE TYPICAL REPUBLICAN LINE WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, AND REGISTRATION IS JUST -- WHAT IF YOU WANT TO SELL A GUN TO YOUR FRIEND?

SHOULD YOU BE ABLE -- SHOULD YOU HAVE TO REGISTER THAT SALE?

OF COURSE, ALL THE GUN OWNERS OR THE MAJORITY -- >> Hilary Rosen: YEAH.

I THINK DEMOCRATS CROSSED THAT THRESHOLD, PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS CROSSED THAT THRESHOLD.

HAS A LOT OF EXPERIENCE FROM THE JUDICIARY COMMITTEE AND THEN WORKING WITH BARACK OBAMA AFTER THESE MULTIPLE MASS SHOOTINGS.

I DON'T THINK WE ARE GOING TO GET STUCK IN THAT OLD PARADIGM ANYMORE THAT THE NRA IS TRYING TO THROW OUT THEY ARE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DO THIS, THEN IT'S THE NEXT STEP TO EVERYONE TAKING A WHALE OF YOUR GUNS.

>> Hilary Rosen: ANNA, DO YOU AGREE?

DO YOU AGREE?

>> Tiana Lowe: WE FORGET THAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF GUN VIOLENCE IN THIS COUNTRY ARE DOMESTIC DISPUTES AND SUICIDES.

SO THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THOSE ARE CAUSED NOT WITH SEMI AUTOMATICS, NOT WITH RIFLES, BUT WITH HANDGUNS WITH SHOTGUNS.

AND THAT'S NOT THE CONVERSATION THAT BIDEN IS INTERESTED IN HAVING.

AND ALSO, WE'RE STILL SEEING SUICIDES SKYROCKET WHEN IT COMES TO OTHER METHODS, WHEN IT COMES ESPECIALLY TO DRUGS, WE'VE SEEN THAT SKYROCKET DURING THE PANDEMIC.

SO IN ORDER TO CHANGE THOSE EFFECTS, YOU NEED TO FOCUS MORE ON DOMESTIC VIOLENCE AND FOCUS MORE ON MENTAL HEALTH.

WITH REGARDS TO DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, SOMETHING THAT I KNOW THAT THE RIGHT IS AMENABLE TO IS THE IDEA OF A GUN VIOLENCE RESTRAINING ORDER, WHICH WOULD ACT SIMILARLY LIKE A REGULAR RESTRAINING ORDER, BUT WITH FIREARMS, BECAUSE FUNDAMENTALLY, THESE SWEEPING RULES ARE ANTITHETICAL TO WHAT THE FOUNDERS WANTED, YOU KNOW, AS GREAT AS I THINK IT IS TO ARM YOURSELF FOR SELF DEFENSE, THE REASON WHY WE HAVE A SECOND AMENDMENT IS THAT WE CAN BE ARMED AGAINST A TYRANNICAL GOVERNMENT.

IF AND WHEN THAT HAPPENS, IT IS NOT ABOUT SELF DEFENSE, THE SELF DEFENSE ARGUMENT IS VERY IMPORTANT, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT PRIOR TO, YOU KNOW, THE PAST 25 YEARS, ALMOST ALL GUN REGULATIONS WERE SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED TO MARGINALIZE BLACK AMERICANS, WERE SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED THEM -- >> Bonnie: HOW SO?

I MEAN, I REMEMBER COVERING GUN ISSUES BACK AS LATE AS THE '80S.

THERE WAS NEVER ANY TALK OF -- I MEAN -- >> Tiana Lowe: I'M TALKING JIM CROW, JIM CROW ERA GUNS, YES, NOT THE '80S.

AND CAMINO, I LIVE IN DOWNTOWN D.C. WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE WHOLE DEFUND THE POLICE THING HAS BEEN ALL THE RAGE.

I'VE BEEN THE VICTIM OF A STRANGER ASSAULT D.C., I KNOW MANY FRIENDS WHO HAVE BEEN THE VICTIM OF STRANGE RESULTS IN D.C. YEAH, I WOULD FEEL A LOT SAFER WITH THE GUN.

BUT D.C. HAS LEFT ME UNARMED AND -- >> Bonnie: RINA, YOU ARE REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST AND ALSO COFOUNDER OR FOUNDER OF WOMEN'S FOR BIDEN DURING THE LAST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION CYCLE.

IF YOU WERE ADVISING, WHAT WOULD YOU TELL HIM TO DO ON GUN CONTROL, IF ANYTHING?

>> Rina Shah: WELL, I THINK THE U.S. SENATE WILL FORCE ITS HAND.

LOOK AT MY HOME STATE SENATOR JOE MANCHIN, I WAS BORN AND RAISED IN RURAL APPALACHIA WHERE PEOPLE LOVE THEIR GUNS.

AND RESPONSIBLE GUN OWNERSHIP WAS ALWAYS A TOPIC OF CONVERSATION IN SOME OF THE COMMUNITIES I GREW UP IN.

TALKING ABOUT WHEN I WENT TO CHURCH ACTIVITIES WITH FRIENDS.

THERE WAS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT PEOPLE LIKE THEIR GUNS, THEY HAD THEIR GUNS FOR VARIOUS REASONS: HUNTING WAS A BIG THING OUT THERE.

BUT THE REALITY WAS PERSONAL SAFETY WAS ALSO A REALLY BIG DEAL.

AND SO, WHEN I LOOK AT THE SITUATION, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT RIGHT NOW.

AND THE RIGHT NOW IS THAT IT FEELS LIKE NOWHERE IS SAFE WHEN WE LOOK AT COLORADO RECENTLY.

COLORADO HAS REALLY REDEFINED HOW PEOPLE LOOK AT GUN VIOLENCE IN THIS COUNTRY WHEN WE THINK ABOUT COLUMBINE AND THAT SCHOOL SHOOTING.

I WAS STILL IN SCHOOL DURING THAT TIME.

AND I JUST REMEMBER BEING BLOWN AWAY THAT THAT COULD HAPPEN AT SCHOOL.

THEN WE LOOKED AT AURORA, COLORADO, IF YOU SEE MOVIE THEATER WHERE YOU FEEL LIKE YOU'RE NOT EVEN SAFE WATCHING A MOVIE.

AND NOW IN A GROCERY STORE.

AND I KNOW SOMEBODY THAT HAD CONNECTIONS TO THAT OFFICER IN THE SPECIAL-NEEDS CASHIER/GROCER THAT WERE KILLED.

AND THE PAIN THAT THESE COMMUNITIES FEEL IS SO -- WE JUST CANNOT DEFINE IT.

UNLESS YOU HAVE GONE THROUGH IT, YOU HAVE NO CLUE.

AND I THINK RIGHT NOW WITH A SITTING MEMBER OF CONGRESS, CONGRESSWOMAN LUCY McBETH OF GEORGIA, REMEMBER MEETING HER ON INAUGURATION DAY 2017 AND SHE WASN'T A CONGRESSWOMAN THEN.

I LOOK AT HER AND I THINK THERE'S A MOTHER WHO LOST HER SON TO SENSELESS VIOLENCE, AND THAT'S WHAT PROMPTED HER TO COME TO PUBLIC SERVICE.

WE SHOULD NOT HAVE STORIES LIKE HERS.

>> Bonnie: AND SHE IS NOT THE FIRST LIKE THAT, BY THE WAY.

>> Rina Shah: ABSOLUTELY NOT, SHE'S NOT.

BUT IN THIS ERA, IT REMINDS US HOW MUCH A PART OF OUR LIFE IT'S ALL BECOMING.

I HAVE COUSINS LIVE IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD TO SAY, AMERICA HAS AN OBSESSION WITH GUNS, DON'T YOU ALL?

AND HERE'S THE THING, BONNIE: THERE REPUBLICANS, THERE ARE PEOPLE RIGHT OF CENTER WHO WANT TO HAVE A CONVERSATION ABOUT TAKING ASSAULT WEAPONS AWAY, WEAPONS THAT ARE WEAPONS OF WAR.

>> Bonnie: LET ME MOVE ON TO THE NEXT TOPIC, WHICH WITHIN THIS TOPIC, WHICH IS -- AND YOU CAN ALL JUMPING ON EACH OTHER, BUT IF I JUMP IN, EVERYBODY ELSE STOPS TALKING.

I'M JUST THERE TO BE THE TRAFFIC COP.

BUT DO WE REALLY BELIEVE THAT A LARGE -- THERE'S ALWAYS BEEN SOME WOMEN AND SOME PEOPLE OF COLOR WHO HAVE GUNS.

DO WE THINK THAT PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION IS GROWING IN THIS ERA?

ANYBODY?

>> Avis Jones-DeWeever: YEAH, IT'S DEFINITELY GROWING.ND, YOU KNOW, AS I SAID, BEING THE VICTIMS OF DOMESTIC TERRORISM IS NOT A NEW THING FOR AFRICAN-AMERICANS.

WE HAVE BEEN AT THE BRUNT OF DOMESTIC TERRORIST ACTIVITY SINCE WE HAVE BEEN HERE.

AND SO -- >> Bonnie: LET ME ASK YOU, FOR AFRICAN-AMERICANS, IS THAT THE MAIN ISSUE PROVIDING -- >> Avis Jones-DeWeever: THAT IS A CENTRAL ISSUE AND IT IS ARISING ISSUE.

I MEAN, EVERYONE HAS SEEN THAT HATE CRIMES OF SPIKED IN RECENT YEARS, UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, WE HIT RECORD HEIGHTS IN TERMS OF THE NUMBER OF HATE ON GROUPS IN AMERICA.

OUR CHILDREN ARE BEING BULLIED BASED ON RACE AT HIGHER LEVELS WHEN THEY WERE IN SCHOOL PRIOR TO THE PANDEMIC.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE GETTING BOLD AND THE RACIST RHETORIC AND VIOLENT ACTIVITY.

AND SO, AS FOR -- I THINK THERE ARE A LOT OF AFRICAN-AMERICANS WERE SAYING THAT I NEED TO BE ABLE TO PROTECT MYSELF, PROTECT MY FAMILY, PROTECT THE PEOPLE THAT I LOVE.

AND IF THEY ARE ARMED, THE NIGHT TO BE ARMED TOO.

>> Bonnie: HILLARY?

>> Rina Shah: IF I MAY, AVIS PUT UP SUCH A GREAT POINT -- >> Bonnie: AGENTS TOO.

OBVIOUSLY ANTI-ASIAN VIOLENCE IN THE PAST WEEK.

>> Tiana Lowe: THERE IS A REASON WHY KOREANS ON THE ROOFTOPS DURING THE RODNEY KING RIOTS WERE THING, BECAUSE POLICE WERE NOT THERE TO PROTECT THEM.

THEY TOOK MATTERS INTO THEIR OWN HANDS.

AND AS AN ASIAN AMERICAN WOMAN, IF WE HAVE A PUSH FOR MORE ASIAN AMERICANS ARM THEMSELVES, I AM ALL FOR IT.

>> Rina Shah: YEAH.

YOU KNOW, WE NEED TO FEEL SAFE IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

WHEN YOU DON'T FEEL SAFE, YOU THINK WHAT IS MY OPTION?AND ON JANUARY 6, I WAS FACED WITH THAT OPTION.

I ACTUALLY HAD FRIENDS TEXTING ME WHEN I WAS ON THE ROOFTOP ON CAPITOL HILL OF 101.

CONSTITUTION AVENUE ASKING ME IF I I WAS CARRYING THAT DAY AND I WASN'T AND AND I WAS IN DC FOR MEDIA AND, AND I LOOKED OUT AT THAT SEA OF FOLKS WHO WERE PART OF THE INFO, YOU KNOW, PART OF THE RALLY, OBVIOUSLY, TO GO TO THE CAPITOL, PROVOKED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP, BUT THEN THERE WERE OBVIOUSLY INSURRECTIONISTS THERE WHO DID TAKE ON THE CAPITOL AND TOOK IT UNDER SIEGE.

BUT I LOOKED OUT AND I'M THINKING TO MYSELF, THAT'S A SEA OF LARGELY WHITE, WHAT'S GOING ON OUT THERE?

ARE THERE WHITE SUPREMACISTS OR THIS -- >> Bonnie: LET ME ASK YOU THIS, RINA, DEANNA, THEN AVIS AND HILLARY AWAY TO JUMP IN TOO.

BUT FOR THE WOMEN OF COLOR ON THIS PANEL, DO ANY OF YOU ON A WEAPON?

AND IF SO, IS IT MORE TO DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST A SEXUAL ASSAULT AS A WOMAN, SO TO SPEAK, OR AGAINST ANTI-RACIAL -- AGAINST RACE-BASED VIOLENCE?

NOBODY?

>> Tiana Lowe: I MEAN, SO IN D.C., I LIVE IN D.C.

PROPER.

IT IS VERY, VERY HARD TO NOT ONLY ON A FIREARM BUT ALSO TO GET A CONCEALED CARRY LICENSE.

SO, YOU KNOW, IT DOES NOT -- BELIEVE ME, I'M ACTUALLY LOOKING TO TRY THAT.

I AM WHAT THEY SAY IS WHITE PASSING, SO I'VE NEVER REALLY GOTTEN THE RACISM ELEMENT OF IT.

BUT STRANGER CRIME -- OH, BUT YEAH, NO, BUT THE SEXUAL ELEMENT, ABSOLUTELY.

CONSIDERING I HAVE BEEN ASSAULTED IN BROAD DAYLIGHT IN DC, AND THERE WERE NO COPS AROUND TO DO ANYTHING.

SO ABSOLUTELY.

THAT IS WHY I WANT TO GUNPOINT I WOULD HAVE SHOT THE GUY WHO DID THAT TO ME WITH NO COMPUNCTION.

THAT IS WHY THE BREONNA TAYLOR CRISIS WAS A GUN RIGHTS ISSUE.

IT WAS AS MUCH POLICE MALPRACTICE AND JUST GROSS INTRUSION OF CIVIL RIGHTS AND CIVIL LIBERTIES AS IT WAS A GUN OWNERS AND GUN RIGHTS ISSUE.

>> Avis Jones-DeWeever: ABSOLUTELY.

I WILL JUST SAY EVEN BEYOND THE JIM CROW ERA, WHEN YOU LOOK AT, FOR EXAMPLE, THE BLACK PANTHER PARTY, WHICH IS MORE RECENT, THAT WAS THE LAST TIME YOU HAD AUTOMATIC WEAPON BANS.

WHEN YOU HAVE A GROUP OF BLACK PEOPLE WHO ARE ARMING THEMSELVES FOR PROTECTION.

AND SO, WE CAN BAN WEAPONS IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE HAVE DONE IN THE PAST.

IT'S JUST INTERESTING TO ME THAT THERE SEEMS TO BE A HESITANCY TO BAN WEAPONS WHEN IT IS WHITE PEOPLE THAT ARE WIELDING IT.

>> Rina Shah: I FOUND A HANDGUN BEFORE IT TOOK IT OUT OF MY HOUSE WHEN I HAD MY FIRST CHILD, BECAUSE MY HUSBAND AND I HAD A DISCUSSION.

WE WERE VERY WORRIED ABOUT THATE'S A POSITION AND WE HAVE SEEN THE STATS ABOUT CHILDREN AND GUNS.

AND HE DID NOT FEEL COMFORTABLE WITH ME HAVING IT.

I HAD IT AS A SINGLE WOMAN.

YEAH.

LIKE I SAID, I HAIL FROM WEST VIRGINIA, LIVED IN D.C. FOR A WHILE.

DEANNA BRINGS UPGRADE ISSUES OUT THERE.

BUT THEN WHEN WE HAD PROPERTY IN VIRGINIA, I, I FELT LIKE THAT WAS SOMETHING I NEEDED TO DO.

I HAD BEEN GROPED IN PHILADELPHIA DURING DUSK.

AND IT JUST THAT SHOOK ME AND I THOUGHT, IF I HAD A GUN, I WOULD HAVE SHOT THAT GUY IN THE FOOT OR LEG.

YOU KNOW, I DEFINITELY WOULD NOT SHOOT TO KILL.

IT'S JUST NOT WHO I AM AS A PERSON.

BUT I MEAN, IN A MOMENT, YOU WANT TO DO EVERYTHING YOU CAN TO PROTECT YOURSELF.

SO A HANDGUN TO ME WAS RESPONSIBLE, BUT WITH VERY YOUNG CHILDREN IN THE HOME.

I'VE BEEN VERY NERVOUS ABOUT THAT.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

HILLARY, LAST QUESTION ON THIS TOPIC: DO YOU THINK WE ARE GOING TO BE ABLE TO -- DO YOU THINK THE WHITE HOUSE AND CONGRESS ARE GOING TO PASS AND IMPROVE ANYTHING?

>> Hilary Rosen: I THINK THERE WAS A SIGNIFICANT DETERMINATION TO AT LEAST GET BACKGROUND CHECKS.

YOU KNOW, I HATE THIS IDEA THAT WE THINK THAT WE ARE SO GIVEN UP ON THE SYSTEM THAT THE ONLY WAY WE CAN PROTECT AGAINST, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE AGAINST, YOU KNOW, RACIST BELIEFS IS TO, YOU KNOW, START OUR OWN ARMY.

WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH RACIST, SYSTEMIC, SYSTEMIC RACISM, POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND AGGRESSIVE CRIME THAT WAY.

AND STATISTICALLY, FORGET ABOUT, YOU KNOW, HOW AWFUL THE BREONNA TAYLOR ISSUE WAS -- AND I AGREE, IF SHE HAD HAD A GUN AND SHOT THE POLICE OFFICER, I'D BE THE FIRST ONE DEFENDING HER.UT STATISTICALLY, PEOPLE WHO OWN GUNS ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE A VICTIM OF GUN VIOLENCE, OFTEN WITH THEIR OWN GUN.

THAT'S JUST A STATISTIC.

AND PEOPLE OF COLOR RIGHT NOW ARE MORE LIKELY TO BE OF VICTIM OF HANDGUN VIOLENCE.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, FIGURING OUT HOW TO GET EVERYBODY MORE GUNS I DON'T THINK IS REALLY THE LONG-TERM SOLUTION.

>> Bonnie: BUT I WANT MORE PERSON AND THEN I HAVE TO JUMP: ARE THERE SO MANY GUNS OUT THERE NOW THAT GUN CONTROL IS A RIDICULOUS CONCEPT?

I SOMETIMES THINK THAT MYSELF.

I MEAN, HOW MANY MILLENNIA WOULD IT TAKE?

>> Hilary Rosen: IT'S PRETTY HARD RIGHT NOW TO REGULATED WITH ANY KIND OF CERTAINTY.

BUT YOU HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE.

AND, YOU KNOW, 22 STATES HAVE ALREADY IMPLEMENT IT SOME FORM OF GUN CONTROL.

AND, ACTUALLY, VIOLENT CRIME IN THOSE STATES HAS BEEN REDUCED.

ND SO, THERE IS DATA EVEN IN HIS OWN COUNTRY FOR IT.

>> Bonnie: OKAY.

MOVING ON FROM PEOPLE OF COLOR AND GUNS TO IMMIGRATION: VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS WILL LEAD THE POLITICALLY RISKY JOB OF RESPONDING TO THE SURGE OF IMMIGRANTS, MANY OF THEM UNACCOMPANIED CHILDREN AT THE U.S. SOUTHERN BORDER.

PRESIDENT BIDEN MADE THE ANNOUNCEMENT SAYING HE CAN THINK OF NOBODY BETTER QUALIFIED TO DO THE JOB.

POWERS WON'T BE IN CHARGE OF ALL OF THE IMMIGRATION ISSUES.

THE FOCUS WILL BE THE IMMEDIATE PROBLEM AT THE BORDER AND LONG-TERM DIPLOMATIC EFFORTS WITH MEXICO AND CENTRAL AMERICA WHERE THE MIGRANTS ARE COMING FROM.

RINA, DO YOU THINK THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN ASSIGNED THIS TASK TO VICE PRESIDENT KAMALA HARRIS BECAUSE IT IS GOING TO BE SO DARNED DIFFICULT TO FIX?

>> Rina Shah: WHO BETTER TO ASSIGN THE TASK TO THE DAUGHTER OF TWO IMMIGRANTS AND I THINK SHE IS -- >> Bonnie: RIGHT, BUT SHE WAS NOT -- WE ARE HAVING A PROBLEM NOW IS ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER, NOT ON PEOPLE COMING OVER FROM ASIA.

>> Rina Shah: OF COURSE, BUT I MEAN HER FATHER CAME OVER FROM JAMAICA, IF I'M CORRECT ON THAT.

HER MOTHER CAME FROM INDIA.

LOOK, I MEAN, I'M THE DAUGHTER OF IMMIGRANTS FROM UGANDA AND INDIA.

AND THOSE OF US WHO HAVE PARENTS IMMIGRATED HERE LEGALLY BY THE LOT LETTER OF THE LAW, WE SPENT A LOT OF MONEY TO DO SO, YOU KNOW, WE DO TAKE ISSUE FOR THOSE WHO WANT TO JUMP THE LINE.

BUT WHAT'S HAPPENING AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER, RIGHT NOW WE ARE IN THE POLITICAL MOMENT THAT HAS MADE FOLKS QUESTION, OR PEOPLE COMING HERE WITH REASONABLE SORT OF REQUESTS FOR ASYLUM.

>>> LIKE WHAT DO THESE MIGRANTS REALLY WANT?

ARE THEY COMING IN UNDER THE GUISE -- BESIDES WHAT I'M HEARING FROM THE RIGHT, A LOT OF IT IS THAT THESE PEOPLE ARE ALL ONLINE.

THEY ARE FLEEING DANGEROUS SITUATIONS.

NO, THEY ARE COMING HERE TO HAVE A BETTER WAY OF LIFE IN AMERICA.

THAT IS THE DEBATE RIGHT NOW.

SO, AGAIN, I THINK WHETHER YOU KNOW, YOU'RE LIKE MYSELF AND VICE PRESIDENT HARRIS, WHO HAVE PARENTS OF THAT ILK, YOU STILL UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IMMIGRATION SYSTEM IS SO BROKEN, AND WHAT WE NEED IS COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM.

AND LOOK, THE REALITY IS, IT'S GOING TO BE -- >> Bonnie: BUT WHAT COMPREHENSIVE IMMIGRATION REFORM HAS MEANT SINCE THE 1980'S WHEN SIMPSON MAZZOLA WAS APPROVED AND THEY GAVE AMNESTY TO 3 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE COUNTRY HERE ILLEGALLY -- AND 11 MILLION -- IT JUST MEANS LETTING EVERYONE WHO CHEATED THE SYSTEM AND CAME HERE ILLEGALLY, AND LET'S START OVER AGAIN.

OF COURSE, YOU'RE GOING TO GET -- >> Rina Shah: RIGHT, RIGHT.

>> Bonnie: WELL, THAT'S AN INVITATION TO COME HERE ILLEGALLY.> Rina Shah: WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE, BONNIE.

IF THAT MEANS RESETTING SOMEHOW, WE NEED TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION.

BUT WE ARE NOT EVEN HAVING THE CONVERSATION.

THE REALITY IS THE ONE BIG PROBLEM HERE IS THESE ARE OVER STAYS.

NOBODY WANTS TO SPEAK ABOUT HOW WE GET TO THIS PROBLEM, QUOTE/UNQUOTE, ILLEGAL ALIENS, ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, THE KIND OF THING.

T'S A LOT OF IT IS, IS THESE FACTS AND DATA THAT DO THAT?

DO YOU MEAN, VISA OVERSTAYS ARE A PROBLEM?

WHY ARE WE NOT TALKING ABOUT THAT?

[CROSS TALK] >> Bonnie: SO WHAT ARE THE INSIDE WHITE HOUSE THOUGHTS?

WIFE TAKE VP HARRIS FOR THIS ASSIGNMENT?

>> Avis Jones-DeWeever: LET'S BE CLEAR ON WHAT SHE IS AND IS NOT ASSIGNED TO DO RIGHT NOW.

SO RINA JUST RAISED A QUESTION ABOUT ENFORCEMENT.

SHE'S NOT GOING TO BE ADDRESSING THE ENFORCEMENT OF THE BORDER AS WE HAVE IT NOW, THAT IS STILL THE DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY.

SHE'S NOT GOING TO BE ADDRESSING, YOU KNOW, FACILITIES, ETC.

WHAT IS A CHALLENGE RIGHT NOW IS THE ECONOMIC PROSPERITY, THE CORRUPTION, THE GOVERNANCE, THE CIVIL SOCIETY IN THE COUNTRIES WERE WE ARE SEEING THE MOST MIGRATION RIGHT NOW.

SO HER JOB FROM THE PRESIDENT IS TO BE A DIPLOMAT AND TRYING TO HELP MEXICO AND THE NORTHERN TRIANGLE NATIONS OF EL SALVADOR, GUATEMALA, AND HONDURAS, TO STEM THAT MIGRATIONS TO THAT SOUTHERN BORDER.

AND THAT IS GOING TO BE, HOW DO YOU ADDRESS THE ISSUES AND HELP THOSE COUNTRIES ADDRESS THE ISSUES THAT HAVE CREATED THIS MIGRATION?

>> Bonnie: BUT INCLUDED IN THAT LIST OF DUTIES SHE HAS, THE SURGE.

SOME SAY THERE IS NO SURGE OF PEOPLE COMING ACROSS THE BORDER ILLEGALLY.

MORE PEOPLE SAY THAT THERE IS A SURGE.

ISN'T THAT -- >> Tiana Lowe: MAY I JUMP IN FOR A SECOND?

>> Bonnie: YEAH.

>> Tiana Lowe: SO TRUMP USED DIPLOMACY, NOT A WALL, TO END HIS 2019 CRISIS.

AND WHAT HE DID WAS HE THURSDAY SHE HAD SAFE THIRD COUNTRY AGREEMENTS WITH THE NORTHERN TRIANGLE NATIONS AND HE CRACKS DOWN ON MEXICO IN MAKING THEM ENFORCE THEIR OWN SOUTHERN BORDER.

AND HERE'S WHY: BECOME -- BECAUSE UNDER EU LAW, SOUTH AMERICAN LAW, WE DO NOT SAY THAT A REFUGEE CAN SHOP FOR WHICH NATION THEY WANT TO CHOOSE ASYLUM IN.

IF YOU ARE AND ETHNIC, AND ESCAPING THE HISTORY OF GENOCIDE OF GUATEMALA, YOU HAVE LEGITIMATE ASYLUM CLAIM.

OWEVER, YOU CAN JUST SAY, OH, I WANT TO GO TO AMERICA BECAUSE IT'S BETTER THAN MEXICO.

BECAUSE ONCE YOU LAND IN MEXICO, YOU CAN IS SET APPLY FOR ASYLUM THERE AND AND AS AN ETHNIC MY END, YOU ARE NO LONGER UNDER THE RISK OF GENOCIDE.

WE DO NOT TAKE AN ECONOMIC MIGRANTS, THAT IS NOT WHAT OUR ASYLUM SYSTEM IS FOR.

IF THAT'S THE CASE, YOU HAVE TO GO ON THE BACK OF THE LINE EVERYONE ELSE.

AND SO THE FIRST THING BIDEN DID WAS REVERSE THOSE DIPLOMATIC ORDERS VIA EXECUTIVE ORDER, AND THEN IMMEDIATELY REMOVED ALL OF THE INCENTIVES THAT WERE KEEPING PEOPLE AWAY FROM COMING UP.

AND THAT'S WHAT'S CREATING THE SEARCH.

SO NOW WE HAVE THE SEARCH.

AGAIN, WE'RE HAVING FEBRUARY ALONE, OVER 100,000 BORDER ENCOUNTERS.

AND THEN FROM THERE, HERE'S THE THING YOU'LL NOTICE -- >> Bonnie: WE ARE ABOUT OUT OF TIME AND I DO WANT TO BRING AVIS IN FOR A LAST -- >> Rina Shah: SORRY.

>> Bonnie: AVIS, YOUR THOUGHTS ON WHETHER, YOU KNOW, WHETHER JUST AN IMPOSSIBLE JOB WAS GIVEN TO KAMALA HARRIS, THE WAY FREQUENTLY WOMEN CEOS ARE ONLY ALLOWED TO TAKE OVER COMPANIES THAT ARE FAILING?

>> Avis Jones-DeWeever: ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK THIS WAS GET THE BLACK WOMAN TO CLEAN UP EVERYBODY ELSE'S MESS.

I MEAN, HONESTLY, THAT'S WHAT THIS WAS.

THIS IS A NO-WIN SITUATION POLITICALLY.

SO WE CAN GET INTO THE DETAILS OF WHAT DID AND DID NOT HAPPEN WITHIN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, ESPECIALLY WITH REGARDS TO THE CRUELTY AND HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS THAT OCCURRED WITH CHILDREN AND FAMILIES.

BUT LET'S JUST BE REAL ABOUT THIS SPECIFIC SITUATION.

SHE WILL BE RECEIVING HEAVY CRITICISM FROM THE RIGHT, SHE WILL BE RECEIVING HEAVY CRITICISM FROM THE LEFT.ND I WONDER IF THIS WAS SOME ADVISING BODIES AROUND PRESIDENT BIDEN THAT MAY BE WANTED TO PUT HER IN A SITUATION TO UNDERMINE ANY FUTURE PRESIDENTIAL ASPIRATIONS.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT, ALL RIGHT.

LAURIE, ONE OR TWO SENTENCES.

AGREE OR DISAGREE?

>> Hilary Rosen: WELL, SHE WAS FULLY ON BOARD WITH DOING THIS BECAUSE SHE HAS PLAYED AN INCREASING ROLE IN FOREIGN POLICY CONVERSATIONS AND WANTED TO DO THIS.

BUT I TOTALLY AGREE WITH AVIS THAT SHE IS GOING TO BE ATTACKED AND WE HAVE TO HAVE HER BACK.

>> Bonnie: ALL RIGHT.

THAT'S IT FOR THIS EDITION.

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